I loved this talk. I especially appreciated how frank you both were. You don’t agree on the political stance that might best respond to this crisis and that’s fine. You don’t have to! I lean in Jenny’s direction, which is to say I hate what the Democratic Party has become (not just on this issue), but also think Trump is a man of terrible character who cannot be trusted. So I’m left to vote for nobody - although I like Jenny’s idea of the write-in, particularly as I too am in a very blue city where my vote would be merely symbolic. Mrs.Miller, I love how you describe people and events and how you call out nonsense. I found myself wishing I was in the room with you two (even though you were in different rooms- states), to have a laugh and then get serious about all of this.
Loved this conversation! Mrs Miller is a warrior! Her writing keeps me sane and reminds me to laugh when all of this gets so depressing. And also I love Jenny writing in Kara Dansky's name on her ballot! I posted on twitter a year or so ago that Kara Dansky would be the only Democrat I'd consider voting for as President! I seriously wish she would actually run!
Content-wise, this was very interesting, thank you! And thank you especially to you and Mrs. Miller for your willingness to be frank and open, it's very helpful for the rest of us.
Production values-wise (I get that you very likely aren't interested), mostly fine, your voice volume faded a few times, halting and awkward at times, I felt my diaphragm involuntarily clenching in sympathy with yours as you tried to get out what you wanted to say.
I recommend a glass or two of wine beforehand and let 'er rip 😀
It's been studied, Michael Bailey I think; that trans ideology springs from the left soil but that Christian boys are also affected. So how we raise our kids, where we raise them is important to avoid the mind virys.
Loved listening to this. It really didn’t communicate just how cutting and insightful to are Mrs Miller but gee it portrayed the progress you’ve made inviting your lip. When Jenny asked about the Georgia case I thought your answer was terrific. Honest and avoided the conversation going off topic. Absolutely incredible.
Oh, and another note to Mrs M: the way you describe your daughter here, she sounds like a pretty typical theater kid even way back in the day when I was in high school, except with some weird pronouns thrown in. I found it interesting that in your count of the cast of this play, the, er, gender diverse (?) group was much more female than the stats at gender clinics (which have over the last five years been somewhere in the neighborhood of 60-75% female), and yet I actually was somewhat surprised at how few of them are medicalized, given that you've described their parents as largely very progressive. It made me wonder if, for many of those kids, perhaps due in part to their interest in theater and performance, this identification is more of a means of being dramatic and just sort of playing character roles than a serious intent to permanently change identity, if that makes sense. I'm having trouble putting the thought into words, I guess. But, it seems to fit with what you've said about what your daughter has told you about wanting to "figure it out" and about her never demanding (or, if I understand correctly, even asking?) to go to a gender clinic. Just a thought...
Hi, are you meaning normal teenage angst and building relationships outside of family as peers take over importance to family and individualisation occurs? Like goth and punk in the past?
That would be lovely! That would be my best case scenario. I’d take a piercing and bit of pot smoking any day! But no I don’t think so. The devastating effect of group think, adult groomers, social media, big pharma profits, the ideology being taught as fact in schools.
I follow this issue every single day (my son thinks he is a girl) the thousands and thousands that medicalise doesn’t fill me will hope that this is a phase of trying to figure it out. And if it is, it has devastating effects on children and their families. I was having a conversation in my head this morning about what I’d like to say to my son asking ‘why does he believe strangers online over his own mum and dad about this” it was a lot more than that but that was the gist. it’s sad. If I didn’t know the pathway… and the permanency I might feel more hope it could just be a phase.
Sorry for the confusion; in my comment I was referring specifically to Mrs Miller's daughter and many in her theater peer group, who-from the relatively brief description in this interview-seem to be somewhat less "intense" about their gender identification than others. I am well aware of the lengths many teens (and adults, for that matter) are going to, as well as how the issue has permeated our society.
What I was trying to communicate, probably poorly, was simply that this particular young woman seems to not be quite as bent on permanently changing her body, on "passing," on taking every length to try to be what she thinks of as "masculine." And I was wondering if, in the case of some of these kids (certainly not all), perhaps especially theater kids who in my own experience have always enjoyed pushing limits and being unconventional with their outward presentation, maybe they are sort of latching on to this as a convenient, socially approved version of nonconformism, much like the goths and punks of my time. If perhaps there is a group of kids for whom this really is more of an experiment that they don't necessarily intend to be permanent, instead of a rush to permanently alter their bodies. Of course, there is ALWAYS the danger that they may impulsively end up causing themselves permanent harm just because of how available and, in many circles, socially acceptable or encouraged it is. And, I reckon it is pretty much impossible for any of us, perhaps even the teens themselves, to know for sure who will and who will not end up doing something dangerous or drastic and permanent. So I'm not trying to invalidate anyone's concerns at all. Just, I guess, finding the differences in this particular story interesting, and wondering about what they might mean.
So, I definitely wasn't speaking of all trans identified kids. Again, I was sort of just musing about this one girl. I guess maybe another way to explain it would be, teens have used drugs and alcohol for decades and decades now. Some, too many, will develop serious addictions, and some will die from them, while others suffer lifelong consequences. Others might take a couple sips of White Claw now and again, or try to look like they're smoking while simultaneously trying their best not to inhale because they actually can't stand the feel of it, but want to look cool and rebel and belong. I'm wondering if Mrs Miller's daughter has sort of adapted the latter scenario to gender identity. I hope maybe that makes more sense?
Makes total sense. 🙂 fingers and toes crossed you are right! My son is similar and about 11 months behind miss Miller. Other than the girl uniform to school I see no further push. He tolerates my using his birth name and correct pronouns. We are (I feel) similarly close. The psych once mused that she had never seen a mother son so close but so opposite in this one thing. I read Mrs Miller as I relate in so many ways with my child. I hope for a positive outcome for Ms Miller as I hope we are following a similar path towards healthy happy whole children ❤️
I suspect that the close relationship you have with your son, as with the Millers, may be part of the reason he and Miss Miller have thus far not been as aggressive in their trans identification, and have not yet demonstrated interest in medicalization. There are studies of psychotherapy that show that by far the best predictor of patient improvement, both subjectively and objectively, is the quality of the relationship-the "fit" -between therapist and patient. Far more important than the type of therapy or any other factor. There is also some research supporting a relationship-focused approach for parents of adolescents with oppositional, aggressive, or criminal behavior, substance abuse and so on. Essentially, the most important focus in that type of technique is the quality of the relationship and communication between parent and child. Rules, particular discipline techniques, "lessons" taught, even the content of conversation (what might normally be thought of by a parent as imparting wisdom and by the child as a lecture) is considered far less important than maintaining strong connection and affection for each other, as well as openness of communication and the adolescent knowing and feeling that they can share anything with the parent without being rejected. Essentially, the focus is on improving and nurturing relationships over controlling behavior.
There is some encouraging evidence supporting such approaches, which go by various names. Interestingly, one of the groups for which this approach has been successful has been kids and teens with neurodiverse, ADHD type traits, which also seem to be a risk factor for trans identification. One such approach in the UK is called the Relational Awareness Programme (it is not the same as the Relational Awareness Program in the US). This article on the problems with ADHD as a medical diagnosis, and treatment with medication, for many kids has a section on this method: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5510228/
So, I have a hunch that perhaps, at least for some of these kids, one of the best things parents can do to help the teen come through this identity confusion is to focus on the quality of their relationship. And it sounds like you've got that pretty much nailed, and have for some time if not for your son's entire life. I have no studies to cite (though I've never looked for any either), but given the information available on the benefits of focusing on relationships, as well as my own personal and career experience with young adults struggling with various types of identity and social problems as well as other mental health issues, I have a theory that the quality of the relationship between parent and child might just be one of the best predictors of whether a child will end up medicalizing and estranged, or will pull through without any severe and permanent consequences. And, with the very limited information people share online about their experiences with their children, it does seem that parents who have less "closeness" and openness with their kids, and who attempt to prohibit any expression of cross-gender identification at all, do tend to say that their children are estranged and have had surgery more often than parents who report a better relationship, and more of a willingness to choose their battles, with their child. I do hope that that is the case with your family, as well as the Millers.
If Mrs Miller reads this, I'm curious about something: I'm currently hearing the part about politics and voting for Trump. Did you know that Melania Trump just headlined what was (I believe) her very first foray into real campaign events of this season. It was a gathering for, and sponsored by, the Log Cabin Republicans, which is a group of LGBT conservatives. There were a number of very rich openly gay Republican men, but one of the other speakers, who was photographed with Mrs Trump repeatedly, was Caitlyn Jenner. The focus of Mrs Trump's speech (and I confess I gleaned this from reading multiple summaries of the event as I don't think I could listen to 5 min without throwing something) included something of a promise that a second Trump administration would prove that the Trump's aren't bigots by really collaborating with all the LGBT conservatives, including the T. And I'm sure you're aware that in the 2016 campaign Trump also campaigned with Jenner, and as he saw that the "bathroom bill" in NC was turning into a political liability for NC Republicans, said "[Jenner] can use whatever bathroom she wants at Trump Tower."
So, I suppose I have two questions: one is, do you really think Trump will stand by his current position on anything, including his position on trans kids and athletes, if the political winds change? And, I'm also wondering how you reconcile having changed your political views wholesale over this one issue (which, to be clear, is absolutely ridiculous in the extreme left), when Republicans, up to and including Trump, are ALSO in fact pandering to the trans activists? It seems that, so far anyway, Trump at least is mostly just focusing on the ones that have serious money-ie adults-and thus far has given them lots of promises and minimal actual policy consideration. But, like I implied with my first question, my strong feeling is that Trump will change any of his "views"and opinions at the drop of a hat if political winds change, so, who knows what the situation will be in 4 years? So I guess I'm just curious how you think about that, if you are willing to answer.
Anyway, thanks to you both for taking the time to record this. Jenny, I really love this series.
Even Caitlyn Jenner knows what a real woman is, and loathes Will Thomas and knows he's a scumbag cheat. Caitlyn is the kind of transexual—like Blaire White and Buck Angel—who know their biological sex and actually have debilitating dysphoria. So I'd have to hear the words from the source. Which incidentally I did listen to in the case of the Georgia phone call Jenny mentioned. Sure enough, Trump was not saying that 11,700 or whatever the exact number was of votes needed to be conjured, but recovered.
And to be clear I left the left over the trans issue but the truth about BLM, affirmative action, welfare, DEI, Israel, the border, the economy, and pro-abortion lunacy validate my decision every day. I have yet to look back or go back.
At 54:26 I said "I cried when he died" but I meant when he was elected. Senior moment. 👵🏻
Also I want to clarify that when Miss Miller first came out and I said at 30:00 "I love you no matter what/I was trying to be the good parent" I mean I was trying to be the cool progressive parent. And despite the worst possible potential outcome I will still love her, but with a shattered heart. 💔
Oh, maybe you’re onto something! Thanks for that lovely comment. ❤️
3-way ❤️🔥
I loved this talk. I especially appreciated how frank you both were. You don’t agree on the political stance that might best respond to this crisis and that’s fine. You don’t have to! I lean in Jenny’s direction, which is to say I hate what the Democratic Party has become (not just on this issue), but also think Trump is a man of terrible character who cannot be trusted. So I’m left to vote for nobody - although I like Jenny’s idea of the write-in, particularly as I too am in a very blue city where my vote would be merely symbolic. Mrs.Miller, I love how you describe people and events and how you call out nonsense. I found myself wishing I was in the room with you two (even though you were in different rooms- states), to have a laugh and then get serious about all of this.
Loved this conversation! Mrs Miller is a warrior! Her writing keeps me sane and reminds me to laugh when all of this gets so depressing. And also I love Jenny writing in Kara Dansky's name on her ballot! I posted on twitter a year or so ago that Kara Dansky would be the only Democrat I'd consider voting for as President! I seriously wish she would actually run!
❤️🔥❤️🔥❤️🔥
Content-wise, this was very interesting, thank you! And thank you especially to you and Mrs. Miller for your willingness to be frank and open, it's very helpful for the rest of us.
Production values-wise (I get that you very likely aren't interested), mostly fine, your voice volume faded a few times, halting and awkward at times, I felt my diaphragm involuntarily clenching in sympathy with yours as you tried to get out what you wanted to say.
I recommend a glass or two of wine beforehand and let 'er rip 😀
It's been studied, Michael Bailey I think; that trans ideology springs from the left soil but that Christian boys are also affected. So how we raise our kids, where we raise them is important to avoid the mind virys.
Loved listening to this. It really didn’t communicate just how cutting and insightful to are Mrs Miller but gee it portrayed the progress you’ve made inviting your lip. When Jenny asked about the Georgia case I thought your answer was terrific. Honest and avoided the conversation going off topic. Absolutely incredible.
Oh, and another note to Mrs M: the way you describe your daughter here, she sounds like a pretty typical theater kid even way back in the day when I was in high school, except with some weird pronouns thrown in. I found it interesting that in your count of the cast of this play, the, er, gender diverse (?) group was much more female than the stats at gender clinics (which have over the last five years been somewhere in the neighborhood of 60-75% female), and yet I actually was somewhat surprised at how few of them are medicalized, given that you've described their parents as largely very progressive. It made me wonder if, for many of those kids, perhaps due in part to their interest in theater and performance, this identification is more of a means of being dramatic and just sort of playing character roles than a serious intent to permanently change identity, if that makes sense. I'm having trouble putting the thought into words, I guess. But, it seems to fit with what you've said about what your daughter has told you about wanting to "figure it out" and about her never demanding (or, if I understand correctly, even asking?) to go to a gender clinic. Just a thought...
Hi, are you meaning normal teenage angst and building relationships outside of family as peers take over importance to family and individualisation occurs? Like goth and punk in the past?
That would be lovely! That would be my best case scenario. I’d take a piercing and bit of pot smoking any day! But no I don’t think so. The devastating effect of group think, adult groomers, social media, big pharma profits, the ideology being taught as fact in schools.
I follow this issue every single day (my son thinks he is a girl) the thousands and thousands that medicalise doesn’t fill me will hope that this is a phase of trying to figure it out. And if it is, it has devastating effects on children and their families. I was having a conversation in my head this morning about what I’d like to say to my son asking ‘why does he believe strangers online over his own mum and dad about this” it was a lot more than that but that was the gist. it’s sad. If I didn’t know the pathway… and the permanency I might feel more hope it could just be a phase.
I hope that makes sense 🙂
Sorry for the confusion; in my comment I was referring specifically to Mrs Miller's daughter and many in her theater peer group, who-from the relatively brief description in this interview-seem to be somewhat less "intense" about their gender identification than others. I am well aware of the lengths many teens (and adults, for that matter) are going to, as well as how the issue has permeated our society.
What I was trying to communicate, probably poorly, was simply that this particular young woman seems to not be quite as bent on permanently changing her body, on "passing," on taking every length to try to be what she thinks of as "masculine." And I was wondering if, in the case of some of these kids (certainly not all), perhaps especially theater kids who in my own experience have always enjoyed pushing limits and being unconventional with their outward presentation, maybe they are sort of latching on to this as a convenient, socially approved version of nonconformism, much like the goths and punks of my time. If perhaps there is a group of kids for whom this really is more of an experiment that they don't necessarily intend to be permanent, instead of a rush to permanently alter their bodies. Of course, there is ALWAYS the danger that they may impulsively end up causing themselves permanent harm just because of how available and, in many circles, socially acceptable or encouraged it is. And, I reckon it is pretty much impossible for any of us, perhaps even the teens themselves, to know for sure who will and who will not end up doing something dangerous or drastic and permanent. So I'm not trying to invalidate anyone's concerns at all. Just, I guess, finding the differences in this particular story interesting, and wondering about what they might mean.
So, I definitely wasn't speaking of all trans identified kids. Again, I was sort of just musing about this one girl. I guess maybe another way to explain it would be, teens have used drugs and alcohol for decades and decades now. Some, too many, will develop serious addictions, and some will die from them, while others suffer lifelong consequences. Others might take a couple sips of White Claw now and again, or try to look like they're smoking while simultaneously trying their best not to inhale because they actually can't stand the feel of it, but want to look cool and rebel and belong. I'm wondering if Mrs Miller's daughter has sort of adapted the latter scenario to gender identity. I hope maybe that makes more sense?
Makes total sense. 🙂 fingers and toes crossed you are right! My son is similar and about 11 months behind miss Miller. Other than the girl uniform to school I see no further push. He tolerates my using his birth name and correct pronouns. We are (I feel) similarly close. The psych once mused that she had never seen a mother son so close but so opposite in this one thing. I read Mrs Miller as I relate in so many ways with my child. I hope for a positive outcome for Ms Miller as I hope we are following a similar path towards healthy happy whole children ❤️
I suspect that the close relationship you have with your son, as with the Millers, may be part of the reason he and Miss Miller have thus far not been as aggressive in their trans identification, and have not yet demonstrated interest in medicalization. There are studies of psychotherapy that show that by far the best predictor of patient improvement, both subjectively and objectively, is the quality of the relationship-the "fit" -between therapist and patient. Far more important than the type of therapy or any other factor. There is also some research supporting a relationship-focused approach for parents of adolescents with oppositional, aggressive, or criminal behavior, substance abuse and so on. Essentially, the most important focus in that type of technique is the quality of the relationship and communication between parent and child. Rules, particular discipline techniques, "lessons" taught, even the content of conversation (what might normally be thought of by a parent as imparting wisdom and by the child as a lecture) is considered far less important than maintaining strong connection and affection for each other, as well as openness of communication and the adolescent knowing and feeling that they can share anything with the parent without being rejected. Essentially, the focus is on improving and nurturing relationships over controlling behavior.
There is some encouraging evidence supporting such approaches, which go by various names. Interestingly, one of the groups for which this approach has been successful has been kids and teens with neurodiverse, ADHD type traits, which also seem to be a risk factor for trans identification. One such approach in the UK is called the Relational Awareness Programme (it is not the same as the Relational Awareness Program in the US). This article on the problems with ADHD as a medical diagnosis, and treatment with medication, for many kids has a section on this method: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5510228/
So, I have a hunch that perhaps, at least for some of these kids, one of the best things parents can do to help the teen come through this identity confusion is to focus on the quality of their relationship. And it sounds like you've got that pretty much nailed, and have for some time if not for your son's entire life. I have no studies to cite (though I've never looked for any either), but given the information available on the benefits of focusing on relationships, as well as my own personal and career experience with young adults struggling with various types of identity and social problems as well as other mental health issues, I have a theory that the quality of the relationship between parent and child might just be one of the best predictors of whether a child will end up medicalizing and estranged, or will pull through without any severe and permanent consequences. And, with the very limited information people share online about their experiences with their children, it does seem that parents who have less "closeness" and openness with their kids, and who attempt to prohibit any expression of cross-gender identification at all, do tend to say that their children are estranged and have had surgery more often than parents who report a better relationship, and more of a willingness to choose their battles, with their child. I do hope that that is the case with your family, as well as the Millers.
If Mrs Miller reads this, I'm curious about something: I'm currently hearing the part about politics and voting for Trump. Did you know that Melania Trump just headlined what was (I believe) her very first foray into real campaign events of this season. It was a gathering for, and sponsored by, the Log Cabin Republicans, which is a group of LGBT conservatives. There were a number of very rich openly gay Republican men, but one of the other speakers, who was photographed with Mrs Trump repeatedly, was Caitlyn Jenner. The focus of Mrs Trump's speech (and I confess I gleaned this from reading multiple summaries of the event as I don't think I could listen to 5 min without throwing something) included something of a promise that a second Trump administration would prove that the Trump's aren't bigots by really collaborating with all the LGBT conservatives, including the T. And I'm sure you're aware that in the 2016 campaign Trump also campaigned with Jenner, and as he saw that the "bathroom bill" in NC was turning into a political liability for NC Republicans, said "[Jenner] can use whatever bathroom she wants at Trump Tower."
So, I suppose I have two questions: one is, do you really think Trump will stand by his current position on anything, including his position on trans kids and athletes, if the political winds change? And, I'm also wondering how you reconcile having changed your political views wholesale over this one issue (which, to be clear, is absolutely ridiculous in the extreme left), when Republicans, up to and including Trump, are ALSO in fact pandering to the trans activists? It seems that, so far anyway, Trump at least is mostly just focusing on the ones that have serious money-ie adults-and thus far has given them lots of promises and minimal actual policy consideration. But, like I implied with my first question, my strong feeling is that Trump will change any of his "views"and opinions at the drop of a hat if political winds change, so, who knows what the situation will be in 4 years? So I guess I'm just curious how you think about that, if you are willing to answer.
Anyway, thanks to you both for taking the time to record this. Jenny, I really love this series.
Even Caitlyn Jenner knows what a real woman is, and loathes Will Thomas and knows he's a scumbag cheat. Caitlyn is the kind of transexual—like Blaire White and Buck Angel—who know their biological sex and actually have debilitating dysphoria. So I'd have to hear the words from the source. Which incidentally I did listen to in the case of the Georgia phone call Jenny mentioned. Sure enough, Trump was not saying that 11,700 or whatever the exact number was of votes needed to be conjured, but recovered.
https://youtu.be/UhBxg17QqZ4?si=Rq8K8z6L9QhqZpCJ
https://youtu.be/fKsIXp2itjo?si=opK0O2Zx2jmIyncp
And to be clear I left the left over the trans issue but the truth about BLM, affirmative action, welfare, DEI, Israel, the border, the economy, and pro-abortion lunacy validate my decision every day. I have yet to look back or go back.
https://open.substack.com/pub/mrsmiller/p/from-the-archives-1c2?r=9q8wg&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
Small note!
At 54:26 I said "I cried when he died" but I meant when he was elected. Senior moment. 👵🏻
Also I want to clarify that when Miss Miller first came out and I said at 30:00 "I love you no matter what/I was trying to be the good parent" I mean I was trying to be the cool progressive parent. And despite the worst possible potential outcome I will still love her, but with a shattered heart. 💔
Mrs. Miller is my fave—will listen to this right away. Thanks Jenny!
Thanks so much for podding me Jenny! Listening now. So so good. 🤌🏼