...in which we talk about her already-famous research as she prepares to transition (pardon the triggering language) from grad student to what comes next.
Wonderful conversation. One of many things I appreciate so much about Eliza/Sarah is her method of open, multi-disciplinary exploration of the phenomena she is studying. As a result, she has an extraordinarily perceptive, well-rounded understanding of these online communities. This in turn enables all of us to understand much more fully how and why young people get caught in the net of this ideology and out of that to better grasp how best we can be of help. And, as always, last not least, your interview style and substance are exemplary in every way. Thanks to you both.
This was a brilliant discussion. Thank you to Jenny for enabling this.
It was really good to hear a much more in-depth focus on Eliza's research, which, I think, is vital to understanding how young women and men form their views on this.
This was really illuminating, Eliza and Jenny. I’ve been reading bits and pieces about your research, Eliza, and this gives me a through line that puts it all together. I wish there were some way to impress both these young people and their therapists with the weight of the imposter syndrome. If they knew the transition would not give them the peace of mind they’re seeking, would they do it? I believe people in general are much better informed about the issue than they were even two years ago, thanks largely to you and other like-minded people. I look forward to reading your thesis — please tell us how to access it. And best wishes on your upcoming book.
Thanks, Diana! I expected McGill to have published it online by now but it doesn't appear to be up. If you email me at elizamondegreen@gmail.com, I would be happy to share it with you that way.
I wonder if anyone has challenged Ray Blanchard and his cohorts, with the fact that when you take off your clothes to bathe, it's impossible to be "dressing" by definition. So the "full time crossdressing for 2 years" was never real. My former husband claimed he did the 2 years before he went for the surgeries in 1996, but I know he didn't. He mostly dressed androgynously and hung out in gay bars and groups where no one would give him a sidewise glance. There simply is no "true trans." Thanks, Eliza and Jenny, for all the work and courage!
The first time I heard Eliza being interviewed several years ago I knew immediately she was someone I needed to follow if I wanted to develop a deeper understanding of gender ideology. This interview didn’t disappoint. It offered up insightful analysis while being thoroughly imbued with compassion. Jenny - the quality of your interviews and conversations with your guests is unmatched.
Thanks for interviewing Eliza, I look forward to reading the thesis. I hope it gets a DOI reference so it can be cited definitively. I believe academia.edu also allows free uploads of papers but I don't see Eliza has a profile there, under that name.
Yeah, the pseudonym predated my time in graduate school. When I started writing about gender online in 2019, I would have been fired from my nonprofit job had I used my real name, since trans-obsessed foundations were our biggest funders.
All of my academic work and my work (mostly behind the scenes) to help bring clinicians and researchers together has been under my real name for years. I plan to share my thesis when it's published online but it hasn't been added to my university's library yet.
This was a great conversation!! I found myself chiming in (luckily nobody heard me) as you were discussing the motivations and psychology of these girls.
I would like to add a third way that some girls react to the pressures of girlhood/womanhood. You noted that there are efforts to play along, dig deep into looking the part (ie. “hot”), and trying for popularity, etc., or, by contrast, efforts to diverge from this path by playing the victim, owning your various diagnoses or weaknesses and opting out of the difficulty of adhering to the undue pressure of trying to be an ideal woman. I know you both agreed this may be a bit simplistic, but I agree with you that these are worthwhile categories of adaption style.
Here is a third option. You aren’t weak or filled with diagnoses. Instead, you are truly unique and cool, a “true trans” individual who is well put together and will make a great guy (because we all know that “pretty boys” are elevated by society - and these days, that even applies to gay pretty boys, aka “twinks,” although you will be pretty short - oh well; you’ll be fashionable; and a sensitive boy is also highly valued, at least as girls see it). In this method of adapting, you completely opt out of all the pressures of womanhood but don’t take on victimhood. You’re not a victim. You’re a unicorn - truly special - and nobody needs to know about it. You are stealth, living below the radar as male, and all is well. You look in the mirror and see a boy, and, although the lie may come out when you are in the shower, you either don’t look down or you remember your unique position in the world as a “trans” man).
Sorry for the long exposition, but I think it’s important to keep fleshing out the different ways in which the “trans” phenomenon is manifested.
Also, I’m excited for Eliza, having completed her doctorate - Oh the Places You’ll Go!! :)
Don’t be sorry! I think it’s a great point. I suspect (from up-close N=1 observation) that sometimes, the new-twink confidence is phase one of the journey while the doubt/angst/suffering phase (some of it performative, not all) takes time to develop.
This conversation was very moving and intelligent. It really feels as if we are getting to a better understanding of this damaging phenomenon, which is another step in the right direction.
Wonderful conversation. One of many things I appreciate so much about Eliza/Sarah is her method of open, multi-disciplinary exploration of the phenomena she is studying. As a result, she has an extraordinarily perceptive, well-rounded understanding of these online communities. This in turn enables all of us to understand much more fully how and why young people get caught in the net of this ideology and out of that to better grasp how best we can be of help. And, as always, last not least, your interview style and substance are exemplary in every way. Thanks to you both.
Others have also make the connection between ROGD and social contagion/social media!!
Please see my book, Kenny, D.T. (2025). "Gender ideology, social contagion, and the making of a transgender generation."
This was a brilliant discussion. Thank you to Jenny for enabling this.
It was really good to hear a much more in-depth focus on Eliza's research, which, I think, is vital to understanding how young women and men form their views on this.
This was really illuminating, Eliza and Jenny. I’ve been reading bits and pieces about your research, Eliza, and this gives me a through line that puts it all together. I wish there were some way to impress both these young people and their therapists with the weight of the imposter syndrome. If they knew the transition would not give them the peace of mind they’re seeking, would they do it? I believe people in general are much better informed about the issue than they were even two years ago, thanks largely to you and other like-minded people. I look forward to reading your thesis — please tell us how to access it. And best wishes on your upcoming book.
Thanks, Diana! I expected McGill to have published it online by now but it doesn't appear to be up. If you email me at elizamondegreen@gmail.com, I would be happy to share it with you that way.
Thanks so much. Will do.
I wonder if anyone has challenged Ray Blanchard and his cohorts, with the fact that when you take off your clothes to bathe, it's impossible to be "dressing" by definition. So the "full time crossdressing for 2 years" was never real. My former husband claimed he did the 2 years before he went for the surgeries in 1996, but I know he didn't. He mostly dressed androgynously and hung out in gay bars and groups where no one would give him a sidewise glance. There simply is no "true trans." Thanks, Eliza and Jenny, for all the work and courage!
The first time I heard Eliza being interviewed several years ago I knew immediately she was someone I needed to follow if I wanted to develop a deeper understanding of gender ideology. This interview didn’t disappoint. It offered up insightful analysis while being thoroughly imbued with compassion. Jenny - the quality of your interviews and conversations with your guests is unmatched.
Well, doesn't that just make my day! Thank you so much, Barb, and you're absolutely right about Eliza.
Thanks for interviewing Eliza, I look forward to reading the thesis. I hope it gets a DOI reference so it can be cited definitively. I believe academia.edu also allows free uploads of papers but I don't see Eliza has a profile there, under that name.
EM is a pseudonym and not the name on the paper. I wish I’d asked her if she plans to ‘come out’ now that she’s graduated. We’ll see.
I can't blame anyone for wanting to protect their privacy and personal safety, particularly in this field.
Yeah, the pseudonym predated my time in graduate school. When I started writing about gender online in 2019, I would have been fired from my nonprofit job had I used my real name, since trans-obsessed foundations were our biggest funders.
Well, if JK Rowling can publish under multiple names, we all can. Good luck with the publication!
All of my academic work and my work (mostly behind the scenes) to help bring clinicians and researchers together has been under my real name for years. I plan to share my thesis when it's published online but it hasn't been added to my university's library yet.
Thanks for the shout-out!
I have to read this thesis.
… said no one, ever — but you should, actually! Ask Eliza!😆
This was a great conversation!! I found myself chiming in (luckily nobody heard me) as you were discussing the motivations and psychology of these girls.
I would like to add a third way that some girls react to the pressures of girlhood/womanhood. You noted that there are efforts to play along, dig deep into looking the part (ie. “hot”), and trying for popularity, etc., or, by contrast, efforts to diverge from this path by playing the victim, owning your various diagnoses or weaknesses and opting out of the difficulty of adhering to the undue pressure of trying to be an ideal woman. I know you both agreed this may be a bit simplistic, but I agree with you that these are worthwhile categories of adaption style.
Here is a third option. You aren’t weak or filled with diagnoses. Instead, you are truly unique and cool, a “true trans” individual who is well put together and will make a great guy (because we all know that “pretty boys” are elevated by society - and these days, that even applies to gay pretty boys, aka “twinks,” although you will be pretty short - oh well; you’ll be fashionable; and a sensitive boy is also highly valued, at least as girls see it). In this method of adapting, you completely opt out of all the pressures of womanhood but don’t take on victimhood. You’re not a victim. You’re a unicorn - truly special - and nobody needs to know about it. You are stealth, living below the radar as male, and all is well. You look in the mirror and see a boy, and, although the lie may come out when you are in the shower, you either don’t look down or you remember your unique position in the world as a “trans” man).
Sorry for the long exposition, but I think it’s important to keep fleshing out the different ways in which the “trans” phenomenon is manifested.
Also, I’m excited for Eliza, having completed her doctorate - Oh the Places You’ll Go!! :)
Don’t be sorry! I think it’s a great point. I suspect (from up-close N=1 observation) that sometimes, the new-twink confidence is phase one of the journey while the doubt/angst/suffering phase (some of it performative, not all) takes time to develop.
This conversation was very moving and intelligent. It really feels as if we are getting to a better understanding of this damaging phenomenon, which is another step in the right direction.
Thank you, Elisabeth. 🙏