Our measured critique of NYT's 'The Protocol' enumerates the many ways Jamie Reed is a better person than Azeen Gorayshi, and features a new William A. F. song about Judith Butler? Nowhere but here.
I wrote this in response to BarPod's discussion about The Protocol: As always, I really appreciate you both covering these difficult issues, especially when you are able to infuse a little bit of humor here and there. But I’m afraid your coverage of The Protocol falls short. For a more far reaching discussion, check out Glenna Goldis on Jenny Poyer Ackerman‘s podcast, Unmuted. First of all, that The Protocol begins with Trump‘s voice announcing his executive orders on “gender” says all you need to know. This is going to be presented with the final message being that a minority group is being persecuted. It’s going to be presented through the lens of ideology and political partisanship rather than science, even though Azeen is supposedly a science writer. A true science writer, or one who doesn’t take off her science hat when wanting to virtue signal and remain on the correct side of the GLAD truck, would ask more serious, consistent questions and provide important definitions of key terms, for instance what is “gender” even anyway? What do these treatments actually do to the human body? Why couldn’t FG pee? Laura Edwards-Leeper is presented as somewhat heroic in the podcast. As is the Dutch protocol. But, as Jessie has explored, the Dutch protocol is deeply flawed, most notably in switching the scales at the end and also in failing to acknowledge that maybe all of these supposed “true” trans kids that were their “pure” test cases were just proto gay kids and not able to really be their sex nonconforming selves much less consent to these so-called treatments. Back to Laura Edwards Leeper. She went to Amsterdam for a week. Did you catch that? One week. And then her greatest soul-searching is worrying that she let the Dutch down. Not that she has been harming children because maybe her gold standard of assessment really might not be assessing what she thinks it does. Also, to say that her US protocol is/was true to the Dutch protocol year or so of watchful waiting by having these children be in therapy is inaccurate. She admits that these auxiliary clinicians did not understand anything about any of this, and that she consulted with them, meaning that she helped to create not only the concept of a trans kid in the United States, but also to birth the affirmation only movement. Where’s the data on how many of these kids desisted after this adjunct therapy? This is not investigative, scientific journalism. As Katie points out, Jaime Reed is the only one who is questioned with any consistent skepticism and challenge. And in the end, the most salient message that the podcast gives about Reed is that she is harming children by being a part of denying them this supposedly life-saving care (Yes, they do somewhat debunk the suicide myth, but at the same time promote the idea through FG, Manon, and some of that infuriating montage that like Katie I couldn’t stand, that a select group of kids wouldn’t thrive and might even kill themselves without this) and that parents will be upset with her, instead of asking her more about what was in her original affidavit concerning the harm that she saw these interventions causing. The concluding message is that the rare unicorn of the trans kid does exist, that the Dutch got it right, that Laura Edwards Leeper tried her best to bring it responsibly to the United States, but a few rogue clinicians like Johanna Olson Kennedy ruined it and now big bad Republicans are trying to ban it. Maybe this will help some of the ROGD subset, but it will continue to “trans away the gay” and create lifelong medical patients whose actual, original distress remains misunderstood.
Thank you for the plug, and for your excellent critique of Jesse and Katie’s critique— my sentiments exactly. Listening to them, I felt validated in my tendency to cut Azeen slack due to her toxic work environment; but ultimately Glenna was right about us all—Jesse, Katie and me— when she said ‘our side needs to stop being so nice!’ It’s not in the journalist’s job description to cut people slack.
I think we can express our disagreements civilly, but in my mind, there’s just no place for niceties with people who are in any way complicit in harming children and vulnerable adults.
I have been obsessed with this topic for a couple of years. But even a thoughtful person who knows very little about the trans kids issue would wonder why (in the first two episodes) there were no questions about the medical interventions, the impact of the hormones and surgeries, the FG's and M's love, romantic, sex life, careers, friends, current health- mental and physical. Also, the attack on Jaime Reed was extreme and unprofessional. Azeen used slang and "like" and threw softballs at pro trans, and bullets at pro normal childhood advocates. Austin was very pushy and only thinly veiled his pro trans stance. Maybe they are terrified of the Trans Activists - extremists.
It's like waves hitting a wall - the NYT is incrementally telling this story - clearly they are terrified and have something to lose with the truth. But one wave at a time, another more mainstream media venue will take it on a little bit more truth will be revealed - it is the slowest most painful road to truth in the history of humanity.
I especially appreciated Glenna’s summery of the current state of the arguments for “GAC” and how knowing this can help us strategize. To summarize her summary, Glenna says the points we need to focus on are the points our opposition doesn’t want to talk about: TRANSING AWAY THE GAY (most important), MEDICAL HARMS, and WHAT THE HELL IS GENDER IDENTITY. Glenna also points out that arguments based on suicide risk, lack of detransitioners and strong evidence have, for the most part, been abandoned.
Thanks! Great summary. Glenna has an encyclopedic memory for historical details combined with a big-picture strategic mind — plus, a sense of humor! In other words, the whole package. 🏆💪🏻
Re the NYT and its determination to protect Trans at all cost while appearing to practice journalism on the issue: if it's anything like the NYT feeder paper I worked for, there are a significant number of parents working there who transed their kids. It just takes a few for the entire institution to become intractable. Even the ex-journos I know who are reasonable on most issues are still transing their own kids or defending boys in girls sports or assuming anything GC is bigoted. I have exactly one journo friend I can discuss this with - she is lesbian, and even she was defensive at first - even though her partner is an unabashed TERF. The profession is captured, and still gets information on how to think about trans from orgs like GLAAD and the ACLU.
I loved this conversation, particularly the part where you point out what the NYT is ready to talk about and acknowledge and what they are not because they don’t have an answer for it
Trying to resist commenting as I’m listening because I could say so much, but in terms of the choice of whether to be a bulldog or a panderer in “reporting” on this, let me emphasize choice. The times doesn’t want someone like Posner investigating this. And Azeen showed her own pitbull abilities when she interviewed Jaime. Because all that is really aimed at with this podcast is to say “keep transing/believing/saving” trans kids. The “right” kids (and believe me, I have so much to say about the supposed diagnostic abilities of Laura Edwards-Leeper) maybe, but still, keep doing it.
In terms of the Protocol, I submitted this comment to Ben Ryan's substack:
"I listened to all podcasts. I wondered about a couple of editing decisions:
1. In terms of the Dutch Protocol studied cohort, one died after receiving vaginoplasty. The podcast did not go into much detail at all about that. I mention it since the death is directly attributable to the micro penis that result from young males taking puberty blockers, necessitating the use of additional tissue to line the neo-vagina. And in this case, tissue from the colon not properly sterilized was used.
2. In one episode, the one about the US?, toward the very end, you hear the voice of Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito reading briefly from the Cass Review to Chase Strangio, lawyer arguing against Skrmetti. But it unfortunately leaves out that stunning moment when Strangio admits that there were rarely any actual completed suicides. Given how often the phrase "life saving", etc came up, this would have been a refreshing note.
In other notes, I read this morning Erin Reed's delight that the series included an interview with the very first patient to undergo these procedures, and how much of a regular guy he now is. But Reed, in typical Reed fashion, totally omits his remarks which clearly show his suspicion that much of what's going on today in gender world is a fad, like "Goth".
I wrote this in response to BarPod's discussion about The Protocol: As always, I really appreciate you both covering these difficult issues, especially when you are able to infuse a little bit of humor here and there. But I’m afraid your coverage of The Protocol falls short. For a more far reaching discussion, check out Glenna Goldis on Jenny Poyer Ackerman‘s podcast, Unmuted. First of all, that The Protocol begins with Trump‘s voice announcing his executive orders on “gender” says all you need to know. This is going to be presented with the final message being that a minority group is being persecuted. It’s going to be presented through the lens of ideology and political partisanship rather than science, even though Azeen is supposedly a science writer. A true science writer, or one who doesn’t take off her science hat when wanting to virtue signal and remain on the correct side of the GLAD truck, would ask more serious, consistent questions and provide important definitions of key terms, for instance what is “gender” even anyway? What do these treatments actually do to the human body? Why couldn’t FG pee? Laura Edwards-Leeper is presented as somewhat heroic in the podcast. As is the Dutch protocol. But, as Jessie has explored, the Dutch protocol is deeply flawed, most notably in switching the scales at the end and also in failing to acknowledge that maybe all of these supposed “true” trans kids that were their “pure” test cases were just proto gay kids and not able to really be their sex nonconforming selves much less consent to these so-called treatments. Back to Laura Edwards Leeper. She went to Amsterdam for a week. Did you catch that? One week. And then her greatest soul-searching is worrying that she let the Dutch down. Not that she has been harming children because maybe her gold standard of assessment really might not be assessing what she thinks it does. Also, to say that her US protocol is/was true to the Dutch protocol year or so of watchful waiting by having these children be in therapy is inaccurate. She admits that these auxiliary clinicians did not understand anything about any of this, and that she consulted with them, meaning that she helped to create not only the concept of a trans kid in the United States, but also to birth the affirmation only movement. Where’s the data on how many of these kids desisted after this adjunct therapy? This is not investigative, scientific journalism. As Katie points out, Jaime Reed is the only one who is questioned with any consistent skepticism and challenge. And in the end, the most salient message that the podcast gives about Reed is that she is harming children by being a part of denying them this supposedly life-saving care (Yes, they do somewhat debunk the suicide myth, but at the same time promote the idea through FG, Manon, and some of that infuriating montage that like Katie I couldn’t stand, that a select group of kids wouldn’t thrive and might even kill themselves without this) and that parents will be upset with her, instead of asking her more about what was in her original affidavit concerning the harm that she saw these interventions causing. The concluding message is that the rare unicorn of the trans kid does exist, that the Dutch got it right, that Laura Edwards Leeper tried her best to bring it responsibly to the United States, but a few rogue clinicians like Johanna Olson Kennedy ruined it and now big bad Republicans are trying to ban it. Maybe this will help some of the ROGD subset, but it will continue to “trans away the gay” and create lifelong medical patients whose actual, original distress remains misunderstood.
Thank you for the plug, and for your excellent critique of Jesse and Katie’s critique— my sentiments exactly. Listening to them, I felt validated in my tendency to cut Azeen slack due to her toxic work environment; but ultimately Glenna was right about us all—Jesse, Katie and me— when she said ‘our side needs to stop being so nice!’ It’s not in the journalist’s job description to cut people slack.
I think we can express our disagreements civilly, but in my mind, there’s just no place for niceties with people who are in any way complicit in harming children and vulnerable adults.
The Ferguson song is hilarious.
I have been obsessed with this topic for a couple of years. But even a thoughtful person who knows very little about the trans kids issue would wonder why (in the first two episodes) there were no questions about the medical interventions, the impact of the hormones and surgeries, the FG's and M's love, romantic, sex life, careers, friends, current health- mental and physical. Also, the attack on Jaime Reed was extreme and unprofessional. Azeen used slang and "like" and threw softballs at pro trans, and bullets at pro normal childhood advocates. Austin was very pushy and only thinly veiled his pro trans stance. Maybe they are terrified of the Trans Activists - extremists.
It's like waves hitting a wall - the NYT is incrementally telling this story - clearly they are terrified and have something to lose with the truth. But one wave at a time, another more mainstream media venue will take it on a little bit more truth will be revealed - it is the slowest most painful road to truth in the history of humanity.
Well said. Thanks for the comment.
Fantastic conversation!
I especially appreciated Glenna’s summery of the current state of the arguments for “GAC” and how knowing this can help us strategize. To summarize her summary, Glenna says the points we need to focus on are the points our opposition doesn’t want to talk about: TRANSING AWAY THE GAY (most important), MEDICAL HARMS, and WHAT THE HELL IS GENDER IDENTITY. Glenna also points out that arguments based on suicide risk, lack of detransitioners and strong evidence have, for the most part, been abandoned.
Thanks! Great summary. Glenna has an encyclopedic memory for historical details combined with a big-picture strategic mind — plus, a sense of humor! In other words, the whole package. 🏆💪🏻
This conversation was riveting and helpful.
Re the NYT and its determination to protect Trans at all cost while appearing to practice journalism on the issue: if it's anything like the NYT feeder paper I worked for, there are a significant number of parents working there who transed their kids. It just takes a few for the entire institution to become intractable. Even the ex-journos I know who are reasonable on most issues are still transing their own kids or defending boys in girls sports or assuming anything GC is bigoted. I have exactly one journo friend I can discuss this with - she is lesbian, and even she was defensive at first - even though her partner is an unabashed TERF. The profession is captured, and still gets information on how to think about trans from orgs like GLAAD and the ACLU.
That’s a really important point, thank you for the comment.
I loved this conversation, particularly the part where you point out what the NYT is ready to talk about and acknowledge and what they are not because they don’t have an answer for it
* bow *
Trying to resist commenting as I’m listening because I could say so much, but in terms of the choice of whether to be a bulldog or a panderer in “reporting” on this, let me emphasize choice. The times doesn’t want someone like Posner investigating this. And Azeen showed her own pitbull abilities when she interviewed Jaime. Because all that is really aimed at with this podcast is to say “keep transing/believing/saving” trans kids. The “right” kids (and believe me, I have so much to say about the supposed diagnostic abilities of Laura Edwards-Leeper) maybe, but still, keep doing it.
💯
In terms of the Protocol, I submitted this comment to Ben Ryan's substack:
"I listened to all podcasts. I wondered about a couple of editing decisions:
1. In terms of the Dutch Protocol studied cohort, one died after receiving vaginoplasty. The podcast did not go into much detail at all about that. I mention it since the death is directly attributable to the micro penis that result from young males taking puberty blockers, necessitating the use of additional tissue to line the neo-vagina. And in this case, tissue from the colon not properly sterilized was used.
2. In one episode, the one about the US?, toward the very end, you hear the voice of Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito reading briefly from the Cass Review to Chase Strangio, lawyer arguing against Skrmetti. But it unfortunately leaves out that stunning moment when Strangio admits that there were rarely any actual completed suicides. Given how often the phrase "life saving", etc came up, this would have been a refreshing note.
In other notes, I read this morning Erin Reed's delight that the series included an interview with the very first patient to undergo these procedures, and how much of a regular guy he now is. But Reed, in typical Reed fashion, totally omits his remarks which clearly show his suspicion that much of what's going on today in gender world is a fad, like "Goth".