Excellent discussion. I liked the discussion that teens do display pseudo type B personalities. Also her observations on the boys describes my son and I’ll add the reiteration effect of what they are reading online in effect brainwashes them. This ideology is a cult. I’ve heard many detransitioners describe it as such, but none of the experts will acknowledge it. Why? For fear of cancellation?
I absolutely consider it a cult — a modern age cult with infinite followers due to online life. All the parallels are there — Preying on a vulnerable population, love bombing, alienation
from all who question and express worry, rejection of past truths, bodily sacrifice, external locus of control.
And what most of us parents are experiencing is estrangement - us vs them. I am not aware of any cult experts who have called it such. Thank you for saying it’s a cult. It seems we need an updated definition of a cult given the ability of the internet to be the leader.
I agree, it seems that it came on with the identity (the narcissism and autistic traits (black and white/rigid thinking)). It just seems to feed it from every direction; that it's right to feel wrong and anyone who says anything otherwise is against you. I loved your point about how this identity allows them to disengage from what they don't like (female stereo types, etc) and then become someone who requires extra attention and special care. It does seem impressive and mature to them, their peers, and so many others in today's world, but instead it is completely giving up the internal locus of control. Lisa gave a great summary of how the language is so distorted; how brave you are, how authentic. And then they can tell parents that even though you support me in everything I do, other than gender, you don't support me at all.
A great piece- two bright minds discussing the complex layers that have become gender ideology. My daughter, when asked how she came to this idea of being trans says “ well, I just tried it and it feels right.” She is 5 years in and we parents are 4 years in. She has yet to make the connection that this was her shield from viewing pornography and fear of being hurt. The aromantic (from a formerly very romantic child) is another indication. Not autistic, but has adhd and rigid thinking.
You all got me thinking about how closely this aligns with personality disorders. The narcissism, blaming others, etc…
Yes, that was the revelation for me too when I first heard Lisa explain it. I'd like to get her opinion on this, but in my personal experience the ROGD teen's acting out in 'cluster B' ways didn't seem native to her personality; it seemed to follow only from the artificial identity and the difficulty of forcing her own cognitive dissonance to maintain it. Maybe appealing to the traits that are native is the best way to break through -- e.g., engage her sense of fairness as in sports, or of weighing two good-faith arguments against each other just for mental exercise.
This was an incredibly powerful conversation!! Thank you!! I really appreciated at the end when Ms Duval recommended being cautious regarding the choice of therapist. I had to end our relationship with the therapist my daughter had had due to the burgeoning realization we were *not* on the same page regarding the trans issue. I do have a question. My younger daughter is a rising 9th grader and the area in which we live has recently had a Supreme Court case involving our school board and LGBT children’s level books being read to toddlers through elementary school to “teach inclusivity” (Mouhamed v. Taylor). I feel like I am just wanting to homeschool her, but I’ve never done that before. How bad are the schools? Do either of you know? Both my girls have done/are doing the ROGD thing (it’s been really bad/extreme, the works).
Thank you for the kind words. My wheels are spinning with possible links to share, but I'm going to take a little time to narrow the field. Hopefully others will have good suggestions in the meantime.
The PBS Newshour covered your school district's case last week -- if you saw it, I wonder what you thought?
I didn’t see the PBS program, but I have read some op-Ed’s in some papers (WSJ) and was reading a lot of opinions and reporting on X.
I had not even known the case was going to SCOTUS though my husband and I were aware of the case reported in local news beginning in 2022.
As a mother, I had been shocked over and over with the creeping (one might say, grooming) and picking away at parent rights in public school in Montgomery County, Maryland.
It was in the early-sexualization of 7th graders in Middle School with the Sex Ed curriculum teaching trans ideology as facts from a place of authority to impressionable kids plus the graphic nature of the curriculum with slides provided by welcomingschools.org (a division of hrc.org) and forbidding teachers and administrative teams from telling parents if your kids were going by different names or pronouns.
The fact that this case went to SCOTUS and hearing some of the justices in the oral arguments grossed out by and aghast and asking if the books and mandated curriculum were intended to “influence” the kids (with the school board’s attorney acknowledging that yes it was intended to influence kids), that made me feel somewhat vindicated and validated for my maternal sense of “ick” that I had previously been gaslit over and shussed and told I wasn’t being “kind” or was homophobic (one person being my daughter’s psychologist).
My daughter went through anorexia already at age 10 in 2021 and it was horrific. She’s doing well now in that aspect, thankfully, but she spends a lot of time online and I don’t know how to help get her away from that.
She also had a girl two years older than her who has some major problems and who goes to the same highschool my daughter would be going to, begin grooming her and telling her she was her “handsome boyfriend” and um, it gets worse I’m afraid, but no need to expose all here in the comments section of Substack.
I witnessed my older daughter come through ROGD (so far, though she may be ‘asexual’ or something) via maturing and with possibly the cultural winds shifting a bit and seeing her cohort of friends also mature and give up the ROGD thing a bit. And she goes to the same highschool and would be a senior when my younger daughter would be starting there.
So I don’t know if I should let my younger daughter go as well (again it’s Montgomery County, Maryland with THAT school board 🤦🏻♀️) and hope she matures. Or try something different…
We’ve considered private school but the admissions periods have all passed and some of the schools are even at capacity with the highest enrollments they’ve ever had and our daughter rebelled when were trying to sort it out this Spring. I don’t think we can consider moving out of the area at this time unless something drastic happens.
I’ve tried other things such as speaking to the principal and administrative staff but they become very guarded and close-lipped in fear of losing their jobs.
I feel like at the highschool there’s fights at school and the bathrooms are locked due to vandalism and kids skipping school and what have you. I’ve rarely been in the highschool in the three years my other daughter has been there due to the security rules. It just doesn’t seem normal or good, though, like I say, somehow my older daughter has navigated it.
Both of my daughters have said they kind of feel like they’re in jail and don’t even enjoy school that much, though they both do fine in their classes.
I have a meeting with the band teacher on Monday at the highschool and I just want to ask her, as a mom, what she thinks.
I don’t know what to do. Thank you, Jenny, in advance for school tips/advice.
Yet another truly insightful discussion on “my” issue - sometimes I think I’m the only one who can’t stop thinking about this insanity so even just knowing you two are also knee-deep in it is comforting.
I loved Lisa’s idea of “just sit with” the pain, discomfort, etc. it’s so true. I was not the happiest of teenagers, but I sat with my discomfort, feelings of inadequacy, etc., and I do believe that helped me navigate adult life. When we instead tell these kids to revel in their discomfort and act it out in their bodies, we are just being cruel - good intentions aside.
This is going to be the topic of a talk I am giving at the Genspect conference in September. How so many have thrown away everything that is known about how to cope effectively with difficulty when it comes to the topic of trans identification.
Thank you, Ann! I’m currently checking it out now thanks to your mentioning it here. It looks like it could be just the thing (I did also purchase the Miriam Grossman book Jenny recommended above as well).
If you haven’t bought a copy of Dr. Miriam Grossman’s book Lost in TransNation yet, I’d highly recommend it. The book is excellent but there are also appendices that offer steps and sample language for dealing with every captured institution in your child’s life, with extra attention paid to school staff. She also has great advice for how to talk to a confused teenager. I recommend the Restore Childhood Newsletter on Substack, as well as Kids First, but my kids are all in their 20s now so I’m looking at school issues from a remove. I hope other parents will chime in with their suggestions.
Excellent discussion. I liked the discussion that teens do display pseudo type B personalities. Also her observations on the boys describes my son and I’ll add the reiteration effect of what they are reading online in effect brainwashes them. This ideology is a cult. I’ve heard many detransitioners describe it as such, but none of the experts will acknowledge it. Why? For fear of cancellation?
I absolutely consider it a cult — a modern age cult with infinite followers due to online life. All the parallels are there — Preying on a vulnerable population, love bombing, alienation
from all who question and express worry, rejection of past truths, bodily sacrifice, external locus of control.
And what most of us parents are experiencing is estrangement - us vs them. I am not aware of any cult experts who have called it such. Thank you for saying it’s a cult. It seems we need an updated definition of a cult given the ability of the internet to be the leader.
I agree, it seems that it came on with the identity (the narcissism and autistic traits (black and white/rigid thinking)). It just seems to feed it from every direction; that it's right to feel wrong and anyone who says anything otherwise is against you. I loved your point about how this identity allows them to disengage from what they don't like (female stereo types, etc) and then become someone who requires extra attention and special care. It does seem impressive and mature to them, their peers, and so many others in today's world, but instead it is completely giving up the internal locus of control. Lisa gave a great summary of how the language is so distorted; how brave you are, how authentic. And then they can tell parents that even though you support me in everything I do, other than gender, you don't support me at all.
Make it make sense!
A great piece- two bright minds discussing the complex layers that have become gender ideology. My daughter, when asked how she came to this idea of being trans says “ well, I just tried it and it feels right.” She is 5 years in and we parents are 4 years in. She has yet to make the connection that this was her shield from viewing pornography and fear of being hurt. The aromantic (from a formerly very romantic child) is another indication. Not autistic, but has adhd and rigid thinking.
You all got me thinking about how closely this aligns with personality disorders. The narcissism, blaming others, etc…
Yes, that was the revelation for me too when I first heard Lisa explain it. I'd like to get her opinion on this, but in my personal experience the ROGD teen's acting out in 'cluster B' ways didn't seem native to her personality; it seemed to follow only from the artificial identity and the difficulty of forcing her own cognitive dissonance to maintain it. Maybe appealing to the traits that are native is the best way to break through -- e.g., engage her sense of fairness as in sports, or of weighing two good-faith arguments against each other just for mental exercise.
This was an incredibly powerful conversation!! Thank you!! I really appreciated at the end when Ms Duval recommended being cautious regarding the choice of therapist. I had to end our relationship with the therapist my daughter had had due to the burgeoning realization we were *not* on the same page regarding the trans issue. I do have a question. My younger daughter is a rising 9th grader and the area in which we live has recently had a Supreme Court case involving our school board and LGBT children’s level books being read to toddlers through elementary school to “teach inclusivity” (Mouhamed v. Taylor). I feel like I am just wanting to homeschool her, but I’ve never done that before. How bad are the schools? Do either of you know? Both my girls have done/are doing the ROGD thing (it’s been really bad/extreme, the works).
Thank you for the kind words. My wheels are spinning with possible links to share, but I'm going to take a little time to narrow the field. Hopefully others will have good suggestions in the meantime.
The PBS Newshour covered your school district's case last week -- if you saw it, I wonder what you thought?
I didn’t see the PBS program, but I have read some op-Ed’s in some papers (WSJ) and was reading a lot of opinions and reporting on X.
I had not even known the case was going to SCOTUS though my husband and I were aware of the case reported in local news beginning in 2022.
As a mother, I had been shocked over and over with the creeping (one might say, grooming) and picking away at parent rights in public school in Montgomery County, Maryland.
It was in the early-sexualization of 7th graders in Middle School with the Sex Ed curriculum teaching trans ideology as facts from a place of authority to impressionable kids plus the graphic nature of the curriculum with slides provided by welcomingschools.org (a division of hrc.org) and forbidding teachers and administrative teams from telling parents if your kids were going by different names or pronouns.
The fact that this case went to SCOTUS and hearing some of the justices in the oral arguments grossed out by and aghast and asking if the books and mandated curriculum were intended to “influence” the kids (with the school board’s attorney acknowledging that yes it was intended to influence kids), that made me feel somewhat vindicated and validated for my maternal sense of “ick” that I had previously been gaslit over and shussed and told I wasn’t being “kind” or was homophobic (one person being my daughter’s psychologist).
My daughter went through anorexia already at age 10 in 2021 and it was horrific. She’s doing well now in that aspect, thankfully, but she spends a lot of time online and I don’t know how to help get her away from that.
She also had a girl two years older than her who has some major problems and who goes to the same highschool my daughter would be going to, begin grooming her and telling her she was her “handsome boyfriend” and um, it gets worse I’m afraid, but no need to expose all here in the comments section of Substack.
I witnessed my older daughter come through ROGD (so far, though she may be ‘asexual’ or something) via maturing and with possibly the cultural winds shifting a bit and seeing her cohort of friends also mature and give up the ROGD thing a bit. And she goes to the same highschool and would be a senior when my younger daughter would be starting there.
So I don’t know if I should let my younger daughter go as well (again it’s Montgomery County, Maryland with THAT school board 🤦🏻♀️) and hope she matures. Or try something different…
We’ve considered private school but the admissions periods have all passed and some of the schools are even at capacity with the highest enrollments they’ve ever had and our daughter rebelled when were trying to sort it out this Spring. I don’t think we can consider moving out of the area at this time unless something drastic happens.
I’ve tried other things such as speaking to the principal and administrative staff but they become very guarded and close-lipped in fear of losing their jobs.
I feel like at the highschool there’s fights at school and the bathrooms are locked due to vandalism and kids skipping school and what have you. I’ve rarely been in the highschool in the three years my other daughter has been there due to the security rules. It just doesn’t seem normal or good, though, like I say, somehow my older daughter has navigated it.
Both of my daughters have said they kind of feel like they’re in jail and don’t even enjoy school that much, though they both do fine in their classes.
I have a meeting with the band teacher on Monday at the highschool and I just want to ask her, as a mom, what she thinks.
I don’t know what to do. Thank you, Jenny, in advance for school tips/advice.
Yet another truly insightful discussion on “my” issue - sometimes I think I’m the only one who can’t stop thinking about this insanity so even just knowing you two are also knee-deep in it is comforting.
I loved Lisa’s idea of “just sit with” the pain, discomfort, etc. it’s so true. I was not the happiest of teenagers, but I sat with my discomfort, feelings of inadequacy, etc., and I do believe that helped me navigate adult life. When we instead tell these kids to revel in their discomfort and act it out in their bodies, we are just being cruel - good intentions aside.
This is going to be the topic of a talk I am giving at the Genspect conference in September. How so many have thrown away everything that is known about how to cope effectively with difficulty when it comes to the topic of trans identification.
Exciting. I can't wait to hear it.
I'm so glad we'll be able to see each other there!
I’m wondering if Stephanie Winn’s ROGDrepair.com resources/ community would be helpful for you?
Thank you, Ann! I’m currently checking it out now thanks to your mentioning it here. It looks like it could be just the thing (I did also purchase the Miriam Grossman book Jenny recommended above as well).
Thank you, Jenny!
If you haven’t bought a copy of Dr. Miriam Grossman’s book Lost in TransNation yet, I’d highly recommend it. The book is excellent but there are also appendices that offer steps and sample language for dealing with every captured institution in your child’s life, with extra attention paid to school staff. She also has great advice for how to talk to a confused teenager. I recommend the Restore Childhood Newsletter on Substack, as well as Kids First, but my kids are all in their 20s now so I’m looking at school issues from a remove. I hope other parents will chime in with their suggestions.
Thank you for all the wonderful information on ROGD and the psychology behind it! It’s devastating as a parent to go through this! God bless you!