Oh! I loved this conversation! Amy Souza is one of my favorite women speaking up on this topic. She's brilliant, and I particularly value her understanding of embodiment, and the importance of listening to and trusting our intuition. Plus she’s just so cute and fun to listen to.
I have been following your work and listening to your podcasts for quite some time and IMO this one belongs in the Hall of Fame. Amy is so articulate and makes so much sense in the way she describes trans ideology. I've already listened twice, sent it to several people and will re-listen again and take copious notes so I, too, can speak as clearly as Amy does about this issue. Thank you, Jenny! I appreciate you!
Another great, inspiring podcast. I could listen to Amy speak all day, and your interjections were all so thoughtful and appreciated.
After listening, I had an unrelated conversation with a friend who was agonizing over having to quit his job because his employer has become unreasonable, failing to pay employees, demanding that they do more and more work with less and less support for the same (not always given) pay. In discussing being "kind" to his employer and to his co-workers and himself, I noted that, on balance, the kindest thing was to quit. He agreed. Amy's point about being kind to women and children, as opposed to men wanting to breach boundaries, is so important.
Still, I always feel the need to stress the point - and you both touched on it - that I don't think it's at all kind to a male or a female to lie in support of a fantasy. It may feel good at the moment when someone goes along with your fantasy, but, as I have explained to my trans-identified daughter repeatedly, it's quite unkind to go along with a fantasy when that fantasy leads to self-harm and an inauthentic life of lies. Sure people lie to kids about Santa Clause or the Tooth Fairy, but that's because it's a harmless fantasy that, deep down, children know isn't real. Once a fantasy turns into something that impacts your life choices and causes body hatred, the need to deceive others and the fear of being "clocked," and, most importantly, extreme self-harm - it's the opposite of kind to go along with it. Why only a small percentage of people - many of whom listen to this podcast- seem to understand such a basic notion is a mystery to me!
Thank you, Jenny and Amy! Echoing other comments here: I so appreciated Amy's framing around "kindness" and when it is not that; and Jenny's words for the mothers resonated deeply. I so welcomed Amy's repeated insistence that we reconnect with and reassert our intuition that when I got to the end of the podcast, I was ready to go back and listen again. Partway through, Amy mentions an upcoming "webinar" - where do we find that? Thanks again for all you do, Jenny.
Love Amy! And of course you, JPA. And all the brilliant work you do. This was a very good day for Terfing. But don't get me started on mothers and their children...!!!🤐😥
Love that you are including photos now! I listened in full and with immense appreciation for the insights both of you offered on a wide range of important topics.
I thought brilliant Amy’s use of the marital exception to rape laws in testimony, noting that the exception wasn’t fully removed until 1993, then analogizing to 2026, “and we are back to telling girls that there is a special category of boy who gets to bypass your consent.”
I was quite moved by Jenny’s characteristically thoughtful observation, in the discussion surrounding Jazz Jenning’s mother, that “I think we are going to need to hold a thought for these mothers and fathers, but maybe especially for the mothers . . .”.
On questions the conversation raised, Amy observed that trans ideology has “an underlying core of mother hatred.” While that does make sense, I am also led to ask whether it is sufficient to explain the core problem. In the ‘90s, Tavris wrote: “ . . . our society continues to fight a war over the proper place of women, and the battleground is the female body.” Today, while that fight continues on far stranger terrain, I would say the battleground has not changed: it is the female body, in all its aspects.
Similarly, in the fascinating discussion of instinct, I found myself puzzling again over the age-old nature vs. nurture debate, specifically whether and to what extent female behavior patterns are rooted in biology, as distinguished from the societal context women and girls must navigate at any given time. This, in particular, reminded me strongly of Tavris’s examination of the shift from “equality feminism” to “cultural feminism” in the ‘90s. Lots to think about there.
Many thanks to you, Jenny, for mentioning the NYS bathroom bill. How I wish there might be an opportunity for Amy to testify against it! Until/unless that might be possible, I’ll pass on statements from two organizers associated with “queer” architecture groups who “helped” the legislator sponsors craft this verkakte bill:
“I am personally invested in this work because I am a nonbinary parent with young children of different genders.”
“I was going through a lot, as many of us were, and I noticed work was happening on the initiatives for women’s equality in architecture, for racial equality in architecture, both at the local and national levels. And I said, 'Wait a minute, where are we?' And because it’s not necessarily a visible identity, it’s an identity you basically declare, there are a lot of mixed positions.”
As the wonderful Liz Fedak of ROAR responded when I told her this: “Oh no… they’re like weeds.”
And guess who wasn’t at the table? Yup, women who know what a woman is.
Thank you, as ever and always, for yet another marvelous conversation.
Oh! I loved this conversation! Amy Souza is one of my favorite women speaking up on this topic. She's brilliant, and I particularly value her understanding of embodiment, and the importance of listening to and trusting our intuition. Plus she’s just so cute and fun to listen to.
Thanks for this interview with the always-great Amy Sousa -- and for the shout-out in your intro.
I have been following your work and listening to your podcasts for quite some time and IMO this one belongs in the Hall of Fame. Amy is so articulate and makes so much sense in the way she describes trans ideology. I've already listened twice, sent it to several people and will re-listen again and take copious notes so I, too, can speak as clearly as Amy does about this issue. Thank you, Jenny! I appreciate you!
Another great, inspiring podcast. I could listen to Amy speak all day, and your interjections were all so thoughtful and appreciated.
After listening, I had an unrelated conversation with a friend who was agonizing over having to quit his job because his employer has become unreasonable, failing to pay employees, demanding that they do more and more work with less and less support for the same (not always given) pay. In discussing being "kind" to his employer and to his co-workers and himself, I noted that, on balance, the kindest thing was to quit. He agreed. Amy's point about being kind to women and children, as opposed to men wanting to breach boundaries, is so important.
Still, I always feel the need to stress the point - and you both touched on it - that I don't think it's at all kind to a male or a female to lie in support of a fantasy. It may feel good at the moment when someone goes along with your fantasy, but, as I have explained to my trans-identified daughter repeatedly, it's quite unkind to go along with a fantasy when that fantasy leads to self-harm and an inauthentic life of lies. Sure people lie to kids about Santa Clause or the Tooth Fairy, but that's because it's a harmless fantasy that, deep down, children know isn't real. Once a fantasy turns into something that impacts your life choices and causes body hatred, the need to deceive others and the fear of being "clocked," and, most importantly, extreme self-harm - it's the opposite of kind to go along with it. Why only a small percentage of people - many of whom listen to this podcast- seem to understand such a basic notion is a mystery to me!
Thank you, Jenny and Amy! Echoing other comments here: I so appreciated Amy's framing around "kindness" and when it is not that; and Jenny's words for the mothers resonated deeply. I so welcomed Amy's repeated insistence that we reconnect with and reassert our intuition that when I got to the end of the podcast, I was ready to go back and listen again. Partway through, Amy mentions an upcoming "webinar" - where do we find that? Thanks again for all you do, Jenny.
Go to her website link in the show notes!
And thank you for the kind words. 😊
Love Amy! And of course you, JPA. And all the brilliant work you do. This was a very good day for Terfing. But don't get me started on mothers and their children...!!!🤐😥
Love you back, Sacha 🩷
Another fab episode, Jenny! I’ve been watching Amy’s videos lately and find them immensely clarifying and so well argued.
Love that you are including photos now! I listened in full and with immense appreciation for the insights both of you offered on a wide range of important topics.
I thought brilliant Amy’s use of the marital exception to rape laws in testimony, noting that the exception wasn’t fully removed until 1993, then analogizing to 2026, “and we are back to telling girls that there is a special category of boy who gets to bypass your consent.”
I was quite moved by Jenny’s characteristically thoughtful observation, in the discussion surrounding Jazz Jenning’s mother, that “I think we are going to need to hold a thought for these mothers and fathers, but maybe especially for the mothers . . .”.
On questions the conversation raised, Amy observed that trans ideology has “an underlying core of mother hatred.” While that does make sense, I am also led to ask whether it is sufficient to explain the core problem. In the ‘90s, Tavris wrote: “ . . . our society continues to fight a war over the proper place of women, and the battleground is the female body.” Today, while that fight continues on far stranger terrain, I would say the battleground has not changed: it is the female body, in all its aspects.
Similarly, in the fascinating discussion of instinct, I found myself puzzling again over the age-old nature vs. nurture debate, specifically whether and to what extent female behavior patterns are rooted in biology, as distinguished from the societal context women and girls must navigate at any given time. This, in particular, reminded me strongly of Tavris’s examination of the shift from “equality feminism” to “cultural feminism” in the ‘90s. Lots to think about there.
Many thanks to you, Jenny, for mentioning the NYS bathroom bill. How I wish there might be an opportunity for Amy to testify against it! Until/unless that might be possible, I’ll pass on statements from two organizers associated with “queer” architecture groups who “helped” the legislator sponsors craft this verkakte bill:
“I am personally invested in this work because I am a nonbinary parent with young children of different genders.”
“I was going through a lot, as many of us were, and I noticed work was happening on the initiatives for women’s equality in architecture, for racial equality in architecture, both at the local and national levels. And I said, 'Wait a minute, where are we?' And because it’s not necessarily a visible identity, it’s an identity you basically declare, there are a lot of mixed positions.”
As the wonderful Liz Fedak of ROAR responded when I told her this: “Oh no… they’re like weeds.”
And guess who wasn’t at the table? Yup, women who know what a woman is.
Thank you, as ever and always, for yet another marvelous conversation.
Ppl
Thank you for yet another marvelous comment/contribution. Liz, too, is right as ever.
I'm devoting the rest of this Sunday to reading Carol Tavris, by the way! :)
❤️❤️❤️
Great conversation, Jenny and Amy. I have restacked.